Curse

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Popular choices I've seen with Moebius Strike and Death Blossom that makes stuff explode in high level PvE areas generally has Golden Fang Strike in the build. The base template is normally something like this, and is pretty much the optimal build for serious damage that supplies AoE also with an Assassin in PvE:

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Unsuspecting Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Popular optionals are (but not restricted to):
"Save Yourselves!" (Reccomended)
Death's Charge
"I Am The Strongest!"
Assassins Remedy
"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (For snaring and interrupts).
Critical Defenses (Reccomended)
Brawling Headbutt (For spamming knockdowns)
Restful Breeze

Different lead, offhands, and dual attacks such as:
Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike can be used to provide stance removal against stance blocking
Sneak Attack
Golden Phoenix Strike could also be used to open up a second optional slot, at the cost of losing Deep Wound from Golden Fang Strike (Reccomended to have cover enchantments to ensure you can land it).
Critical Strike is a common replacement for Critical Eye as alot of people like the energy on demand, I however find it unnessacary with Critical Eye as you keep the critical hit rate up giving higher DPS overall and it takes seconds to regain energy by auto attacking should you need to.
Twisting Fangs (Taken alongside Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike normally as a source of Deep Wound)

Here's are some examples of builds using different leads and offhands alongside Moebius Strike and Death Blossom:

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Twisting Fangs][Resurrection Signet][/build]

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][Critical Eye][Golden Phoenix Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Twisting Fangs][Resurrection Signet][/build]

The Moebius Strike and Death Blossom combo is also a popular choice in Assassin farming methods. Here is the solo farming variant commonly run today since the Mystic Regeneration nerf that is capable of farming areas on Hard Mode:

[build prof=A/Mo name="Death Blossom" dag=11+1 cri=10+1+2 healin=10][Golden Phoenix Strike][Critical Strike][Moebius Strike][Death Blossom][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][Vigorous Spirit][Live Vicariously][/build]

Conclusion
I've only touched the tip of the iceberg, seriously. Moebius Strike and Death Blossom is a strong and versatile combo with much room for running different variants that can be quite effective in the majority of areas. There isn't an Assassin build in PvE that matches it for sheer DPS and AoE together with such a short recharge on the skills (that are normally recharged by Moebius Strike anyway). It IS unsuitable in some areas, but those areas ARE few and far between and that DOES make taking Moebius Strike and Death Blossom the "Definitive Assassin build for PvE"

Bobby2 · May 14, 2008, 09:49 AM // 09:49

EDIT: Ignore! mustlrn2reed.

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

EDIT: Ignore! mustlrn2reed.

Indeed you must!

Super Igor · May 14, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

anywai gais, for sins its either DB/MS or Shattersinning, cear?

RavagerOfDreams · May 14, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better.

^ incorrect

go hit the 100al 80al and 60 al dummies outside of GTB and see how the damage goes

just to save you the trouble you hit 24ish on 100 40ish on 80 and 50ish on 60 no criticals 14 Dagger Mastery

CagedinSanity · May 14, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Arguement was over when someone mentioned how things are situational. I don't want to rehash what has already been said, just read the last 2 pages and it basically sums up my thoughts on why I run Shattering most of the time.

Super Igor · May 14, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Shattersins are good in areas packed with powerfull monks and lots of blocking enchies/stances on foes.

For example the Stone Summit: they have monks with MoP and similar damage reducing spells and their melee hits very very hard, when you run into a mob with about three mellees and two monks you are in trouble as the melee, enchanted with MoP is hard to kill without ench removals and could wipe important characters of your team, stripping the enchies from the could be very helpful.

It some area you get bond monks alongside strong mellee that has ways to kd and similar sutffs, in these cases shattersin is too, very helpful.

Overall Shattersin damage is lower than that of MS/DB though.

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Shattering Assault Assassins are actually pretty damn good to have in the Fissure of Woe. As I said above, MS/DB is the definitive build but it isn't best for every area. Some areas require specific skill setups to work around specific mobs that MS/DB won't cope with, dependant on the teams proffessions you go with too.

If you want to be the sole enchantment remover, Shattering Assault all the way. Want to be the melee AoE inflictor? MS/DB all the way. There is no right or wrong, it depends on who you go with, what they're running, and what you aim to achieve with your build.

Super Igor · May 14, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I use Shattersin quite a lot, it does help gainst those enchie heavy mobs.

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

...snip
It IS unsuitable in some areas, but those areas ARE few and far between and that DOES make taking Moebius Strike and Death Blossom the "Definitive Assassin build for PvE"

Although this is true, when it comes to later areas in any campaign, including many areas of EotN alot of enemies are more likely to have blocking stances and prots to a lesser extent. Caster enemies will hex you with blurred vision, or use blindingflash/surge to blind. EotN enemies were designed so people would have to find alternatives to cookie cutter builds. Just look at how this forced many fire elementalists to go a different direction by making destroyers immune to burning.

This is also where the weaknesses of MS/DB are exposed by enemies using blind/blurred vision, any kind of block stances, and enchant based prots. This is also where the Shattersin shines because it can bypasses stances and prots. Since a shattersin can run with a 3-4 skill combo, have Critical Agility, and 3-4 more utility skills, the build can easily run Assassin's Remedy to counter blind. At this point, only hexes can really deter a shattersin. Of course MS/DB can run assassins remedy and wild strike to overcome stances, they will definately have to compromise their bar by running a 4(single dual)-5(two duals) chain combo with critical agility leaving room for 2-3 slots for utility. If you use Assassin's Remedy and Save Yourselves, now you have no slots, maybe 1 for Critical Defense if you decide to go with just Death Blossom as your dual attack.

So yes, MS/DB is good for a bulk of the areas, which are about easy to moderate in difficulty. But the Shattersin is better for the harder areas because of its ability to bypass defense and counter melee hate.

Basically it comes down to what you think is best for where you are in the game and how you want to play.

[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] = DPS and Dual Combinations
[skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] = Utility and reliability

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

Although this is true, when it comes to later areas in any campaign, including many areas of EotN alot of enemies are more likely to have blocking stances and prots to a lesser extent. Caster enemies will hex you with blurred vision, or use blindingflash/surge to blind. EotN enemies were designed so people would have to find alternatives to cookie cutter builds. Just look at how this forced many fire elementalists to go a different direction by making destroyers immune to burning.

This is also where the weaknesses of MS/DB are exposed by enemies using blind/blurred vision, any kind of block stances, and enchant based prots of all kind. This is also where the Shattersin shines because it can bypasses stances and prots. Since a shattersin can run with a 3-4 skill combo, have Critical Agility, and 3-4 more utility skills, the build can easily run Assassin's Remedy to counter blind. At this point, only hexes can really deter a shattersin. Of course MS/DB can run assassins remedy and wild strike to overcome stances, they will definately have to compromise their bar by running a 4(single dual)-5(two duals) chain combo with critical agility leaving room for 2-3 slots for utility. If you use Assassin's Remedy and Save Yourselves, now you have no slots, maybe 1 for Critical Defense if you decide to go with just Death Blossom as your dual attack.

So yes, MS/DB is good for a bulk of the areas, which are about easy to moderate in difficulty. But the Shattersin is better for the harder areas because of its ability to bypass defense and translate energy into damage more frequently.

The only problem you should be having is blocking enchantments (which is where Shattering Assault comes in). Everything else can easily be covered by varying the MS/DB Assassin slightly or having the rest of your team do their job properly. IE:Wild Strike for stance removal, Assassins Remedy for Blind, Monk to remove Blurred Vision (which also applies to a Shattering Assault Assassin too). The ability to be able to change the build around like this and still have it be effective is what makes it so strong compared to other builds.

Save Yourselves is nice to have on your bar but you don't need to take it if your team runs an Imbagon allowing you to run Critical Defenses if you need to (personally I've never bothered running CD in PvE) or a Resurrection Signet. Failing that just drop your Resurrection Signet, the only person who should ever need resurrecting in the party is you if everyone else has +100 armour. If your Monks can't keep you alive with +100 armour spammed on the whole party then they fail hard. Sad, and harsh, but true.

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Assassins Remedy][Save Yourselves][/build]

Quote:

Basically it comes down to what you think is best for where you are in the game and how you want to play.

That I agree with wholeheartedly, just that 9/10 times it's MS/DB spamming.

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

^ posted before i was done editing.

Also wanted to add that a Shattersin also has no problems keeping up SY because of ias. Its the same in my conlcusion, Shattersin offers more utility and reliablity, while MS/DB offers more DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

^ incorrect

go hit the 100al 80al and 60 al dummies outside of GTB and see how the damage goes

just to save you the trouble you hit 24ish on 100 40ish on 80 and 50ish on 60 no criticals 14 Dagger Mastery

Although the damage from SA is mitigated by higher AL, it can easily be remedied somewhat by swapping to elemental daggers vs wars, so they only have 80AL. When that target is at the 50% breakpoint, just order your group to [skill]Finish Him[/skill] and DW and CA will do the rest.

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

^ posted before i was done editing.

Seen and changed to reflect.

Quote:

Also wanted to add that a Shattersin also has no problems keeping up SY because of ias. Its the same in my conlcusion, Shattersin offers more utility and reliablity, while MS/DB offers more DPS.

What makes MS/DB so strong at maintaing SY over Shattering Assault is spamming MS/DB, you have a short downtime of using Shattering Assaults chain which leaves you autoattacking leaving you with much less DPS. Also you have a much higher recharge on your Deep Wound (if taken: Impale) that isn't recharged by your attacks and is none spammable on multiple enemies and is time spent not attacking to maintain adrenaline. The only thing I see that Shattering Assault has any advantage is in removing enchantments to be honest. Both builds use four attack skills (mostly except in some variants) which leaves the same amount of room for utilities in both (which in both builds is almost pretty much the same skills anyway). Also Shattering Assault doesn't have as good energy management as MS/DB as it's not spamming it's dual attacks enough and has a costly dual attack too.

Here's both matching up side by side with stance removal included (for those who are wondering wtf we're going on about, lol):

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build]

[build prof=A/any name="Shattering Assault" dag=11+1 cri=12+1 dea=6+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Shattering Assault][Impale][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build]

All in all, both builds are good at what they do. If you need enchantment removal (which in all of Guild Wars I have only really needed to use it as an Assassin in two areas) Shattering Assault is great. If you want something thats going to make stuff explode then it's MS/DB all the way. The difference here is that MS/DB is versatile enough to be used almost anywhere with just a few modifications to the build, meaning that with its heightened DPS compared to Shattering Assault there's not really any reason you shouldn't be using it except for enchantment removal.

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

When it comes to [skill]Save Yourselves[/skill] all you need is adrenaline to fuel it, not dps. And remember, when you're not hitting your target, you're not building adrenaline, which the Shattersin is very capable of. I agree, the DPS of SA is not as good as MS/DB, i just think SA is more reliable without having to compromise your main combo. The main reason why many love MS is because you can bring more than one Dual attack to chain. Even in your example, you reference having a spammable DW through Twisting Fangs. This makes your attack chain 5 skills with GFS and WS. This also means you lose a utility skill, like Critical Eye for energy management, or assassins' remedy for blind, or even SY for group buff. I really can't say spammable DW is that much of an advantage since you're giving up a utility slot. Yes the utility may be the same, its just a Shattersin can bring more utility to the group even if it is one more slot.

Although MS/DB is great overall, I just don't think it is that much better than a shattersin. MS/DB may be the "Definative Best" for the easy to moderate areas, but the utility and reliablity of a Shattersin is just better for those less common harder areas.

Bobby2 · May 14, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

/agree

My thoughts exactly... even if I may use harsher terms.

Except for the final part, I still believe ench removal should be left to those classes better suited to such a task. The Sin's main strength is front-loaded damage, any sacrifice in this area should be justified imo; Shattering reduces your damage output to mediocre at best and results in the entire attack chain essentially being devoted to the removal of enchantments (CritDefenses is the main tripping block here right -.-' ). As said before: Heroes are that 1337.

@ petro: ANY Sin with CritAgility can keep up SY! for nigh constantly by just c-spacing. Damage inflicted doesn't influence adrenaline gain - so Blossom spammers and Shattersins will be equally adept at using this skill.

To round off, in my mind there was never any question about whether one should go /W for SY! - imo any class able to build adren doing what it does already (W, A, R, P, D) should VERY strongly consider bringing it. For Assassins, normally offering NOTHING besides DPS to their party, never using adrenaline in the first place, it feels like a crime not to bring it.

(Of course this doesn't apply to solo builds.)

EDIT in response to petro's last...
I'll take DB spam into the most notorious areas. Luckily my Guild leader does too so we're happily Blossoming together. We've both settled on:
[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill]
I haven't had any of my attacks miss on our last run... but with a lot of Mesmer fanboiz one can expect a heavy emphasis on debuffs on any occasion

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

...snip

Except for the final part, I still believe ench removal should be left to those classes better suited to such a task. The Sin's main strength is front-loaded damage, any sacrifice in this area should be justified imo; Shattering reduces your damage output to mediocre at best and results in the entire attack chain essentially being devoted to the removal of enchantments (CritDefenses is the main tripping block here right -.-' ). As said before: Heroes are that 1337.

From the example you used from previous posts, you used [skill]Corrupt Enchantment[/skill]. This is also 1 Enchant every 10 seconds. There are times when there will be more than 1 Monk in a mob, due to either a bad pull, or another mob pathing into your group while you're engaged. This is where having something that can nuke enchants at a faster rate is very helpfull. There are also times when a monk will be spamming skills like [skill]Guardian[/skill] which clearly can't be nuked every 10 seconds. There are also times when you run into multiple Mandragors that will always have [skill]Stoneflesh Aura[/skill] up, or those annoying Djinns with [skill]Vow of Silence[/skill], which your nukers will love you for.

Usually, I have 1 Necro Hero running [skill]Blood is Power[/skill] on an MM template to ensure my healers and nukers constantly have energy. But that is my preference and why I see more value in a ShatterSin

Quote:

@ petro: ANY Sin with CritAgility can keep up SY! for nigh constantly by just c-spacing. Damage inflicted doesn't influence adrenaline gain - so Blossom spammers and Shattersins will be equally adept at using this skill.

I am aware of this, that's why I brought it up. Maybe this should have been @unreal?

Quote:

...snip
EDIT in response to petro's last...
I'll take DB spam into the most notorious areas. Luckily my Guild leader does too so we're happily Blossoming together. We've both settled on:
[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill]
I haven't had any of my attacks miss on our last run... but with a lot of Mesmer fanboiz one can expect a heavy emphasis on debuffs on any occasion

Even though that build is tuned to compensate for MS/DB's weaknesses, I believe using 1 dual with MS is only enjoying half of the skills potential. Personally, I like grouping MS/DB with [skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill] for KD spam fun, or as Unreal brought up [skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill] to DW healers. Disenchant happy Mesmers will hurt both builds equally but the good thing about the shattersin's extra utility slot means they can bring CD to act as a cover enchant. Althought that would make little difference with more than 2 enchant nukers in the mob.

kev read · May 14, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicecube

I was reading up on Save Yourselves! and was skeptical on using it on my sin because of this "Monsters like to target the enemy with the lowest armor level, and with your entire team (except you) under a +100 armor boost, they are likely to all collapse on you"

but im guessing the armor boost from critical agility and the 75% block from critical defenses helped with all the extra foes only targetting you.

[skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill]

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

When it comes to "Save Yourselves!" all you need is adrenaline to fuel it, not dps. And remember, when you're not hitting your target, you're not building adrenaline, which the Shattersin is very capable of. I agree, the DPS of SA is not as good as MS/DB, i just think SA is more reliable without having to compromise your main combo.

But here's the main point. MS/DB maintains Save Yourselves spamming AoE double striking and doing a load of damage to go on top of it. There's little point in taking an Assassin that doesn't kill stuff. Shattering Assault does not make things explode like MS/DB does, it's a utility build to setup targets for other classes to take care of the targets stripped defenses. Unless you really NEED enchantment removal, that your support proffessions can't take care of, there really is little reason to run a Shattering Assault Assassin over MS/DB in PvE, especially to maintain Save Yourselves due to your double strike rate in building up adrenaline compared to Shattering Assault.

Quote:

The main reason why many love MS is because you can bring more than one Dual attack to chain. Even in your example, you reference having a spammable DW through Twisting Fangs. This makes your attack chain 5 skills with GFS and WS. This also means you lose a utility skill, like Critical Eye for energy management, or assassins' remedy for blind, or even SY for group buff. I really can't say spammable DW is that much of an advantage since you're giving up a utility slot. Yes the utility may be the same, its just a Shattersin can bring more utility to the group even if it is one more slot.

In PvE you will rarely need anything else other than MS/DB dual attack wise. However the most common builds that run two dual attacks swap Critcal Eye for Critical Strike which provides refreshment for your enchantments and critical hits and energy management on demand on top of doing critical damage. You can also run Golden Phoenix Strike and skip your lead for an extra utility slot. Blocking enchantments and stances aren't a major issue because you should be targeting casters in most areas anyway. However the main point here is that the MS/DB build is flexible and can be changed to suit just about any foe you face and still maintain a solid DPS rate compared to using Shattering Assault which in comparison has poor DPS.

The builds I showed with Twisting Fangs in were just example builds to show how flexible MS/DB can be, it's main advantage is that you can keep up the double strike hit rate. Unless you need a second dual attack to serve a specific purpose there's no point in wasting utility for it. What skills you take with a MS/DB build depend largely on the area you are heading into, and with good forward planning you can use MS/DB on almost anything in the game.

Quote:

Although MS/DB is great overall, I just don't think it is that much better than a shattersin. MS/DB may be the "Definative Best" for the easy to moderate areas, but the utility and reliablity of a Shattersin is just better for those less common harder areas.

That depends on if you want utility or if you want to actually kill stuff.

Bobby2 · May 14, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Oh dear, what have we gotten ourselves into

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

From the example you used from previous posts, you used Corrupt Enchantment. This is also 1 Enchant every 10 seconds. There are times when there will be more than 1 Monk in a mob, due to either a bad pull, or another mob pathing into your group while you're engaged. This is where having something that can nuke enchants at a faster rate is very helpfull. There are also times when a monk will be spamming skills like Guardian which clearly can't be nuked every 10 seconds. There are also times when you run into multiple Mandragors that will always have Stoneflesh Aura up, or those annoying Djinns with VoS, which your nukers will love you for.

Here we go.
CE wasn't the only example I noted but it is irrelevant, since all scenarios you describe differ from the (my) norm. Bad pulls tend not to occur. Guardian can be avoided by switching targets (and let Blossom's and Splinter's AoE damage nab the Monk anyway). There you have the main source of our party's damage output: our (scarce) Eles favour Water and Earth - so no nukers to please! Everybody happy

If you are truly worried, your MM Hero can always slot [skill]well of the profane[/skill]. I'm just trying to emphasize it's not worth your Elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

I am aware of this, that's why I brought it up. Maybe this should have been @unreal?

Guess so, then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

Even though that build is tuned to compensate for MS/DB's weaknesses, I believe using 1 dual with MS is only enjoying half of the skills potential. Personally, I like grouping MS/DB with HotO for KD spam fun, or as Unreal brought up TF to DW healers. Disenchant happy Mesmers will hurt both builds equally but the good thing about the shattersin's extra utility slot means they can bring CD to act as a cover enchant. Althought that would make little difference with more than 2 enchant nukers in the mob.

The build has quite a history. It used to have [skill]golden phoenix strike[/skill][skill]critical strike[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill] as its chain. After encountering enchant strips with more frequency, and getting increasingly frustrated with GPS' 8 sec recharge, the swap to [skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill] was made. Now the issue of Blossom actually connecting before the target died took priority; this was the reason for removing [skill]critical strike[/skill] altogether and putting in [skill]critical eye[/skill] for e-management. Only one dual left - but it's the best (PvE) Dual out there so why not.
[skill]horns of the ox[/skill]: a natural partner for MS... in PvP. PvE baddies tend to bunch up too much for it to see worthy use.
[skill]twisting fangs[/skill]: a good skill both in PvE and PvP. If it's just for the DW I'd rather have [skill]impale[/skill] or get funky with [skill]finish him[/skill] since repeated Twisting isn't nice for your blue bar (and not hella useful either).

EDIT: outninja'd by Unreal